The Path to UX Research: T'Lai Martindale on Persistence and Potential

Landing that first job as a UX researcher can be daunting, especially for those from academic backgrounds. Hear how T’Lai Martindale leveraged her psychology and applied behavior analysis background to break into UX research. She shares advice on proving your abilities, asking questions, building relationships, and avoiding common pitfalls. T’Lai also discusses her experience as a Black woman in the industry and stresses the importance of persistence. Though the path may be difficult, she encourages aspiring Black UX researchers to stay focused on their goals.

Brandon: So can you tell me a bit about your background? How did you first get into UX research?

T'Lai: Sure, my undergraduate major was in psychology and I have my Master's in applied behavior analysis. I was originally doing academic research. I did a lot of my graduate school research in an autism setting so very academic focused. Academic research is very valuable, but it takes a while and I just appreciated the immediacy of UX and how you could just see direct impacts from the research that you conducted. That was my reason for wanting to pivot. As far as actually getting there, it was very tough because I had to prove to the industry that with my academic background, I could conduct research that has an impact in the industry. I started working at FanDuel, and just offered myself to the UX team to get any industry research experience that I could. I wanted anything under my belt so just really trying to hustle to get solidified UX projects on my resume that I could speak to. Then, my career took off from there. I went up to Apartments.com after that and I've been a contractor at Home Depot several times, and that’s where I am now. I really love that company, but it was tough just because academia is so different from UX but it’s similar at the same time. I just had to bridge the gap for myself.  

Brandon: You say you offered yourself to FanDuel and I've talked to a lot of young researchers who are looking for that first break in so I really want to focus on that. How did you offer yourself, and what did that look like?

T'Lai: Yes, I'm getting chills now because it was difficult! I want to say to anyone that is trying to do this, it's hard but just try. So on LinkedIn I actually had a connection with a manager at FanDuel through another person. So that’s one thing, leverage your network! Leveraging your network but also genuine connections like not just connecting for the sake of connecting.  I actually got a job at FanDuel as an Operations Agent and it was pretty much customer service.  I was handling chats. I was helping customers, and it was very base level. But because  I knew the manager was in the UX for the company, I just emailed her like, ‘Hey I'm looking to get into UX. I'm really interested, but I don't really have a ton of experience. But on my breaks or on Friday afternoons can I come and help work on a project? Can I sit in on interviews with anyone from your team?’ I was really just trying to absorb anything that I could. That's what I meant when I said I just offered myself like, ‘Please can I have any type of experience or industry projects?’ She was more than willing and I actually wanted to have a position there but it wasn’t the right time as far as hiring. I still think that was the pivotal point because that was the first time I was able to have projects to speak to in my interviews. Interviewing is another task…as the UXer has to “pass” the interviews, but that’s a whole other conversation. But yes, I was literally just kind of begging for a project.

Brandon: Just getting your foot in the door is so important!  I'm happy to hear about your hustling to get in because I've heard a lot about volunteering your time just to prove yourself. 

T'Lai: That's what it was, yes, but it benefits both because the team had a new secondary person, and I did have that research background so it's not like I was coming in just ground zero. It gave them an extra hand and it definitely gave me an upper hand too.

Brandon: What would you say you did that helped you prove your ability as a researcher and do you have any advice you can give to anyone who will be reading this?

T'Lai: So good. Asking questions! Be vulnerable, and don’t try to pretend that you know everything. I think it's better that you don't because you're able to actually gain the knowledge that you'll need. I think just being a sponge and being open and also understanding that they're not expecting you to know everything. You're coming in new for a reason, or fresh for a reason, so leverage that and use it to your advantage to ask all the questions that you need to clarify things. Just don't be afraid to ball like on your face or look dumb if that's what we want to call it because at the end of the day it's going to be more experience. It’s going to help you, so just be hungry for the knowledge and just really want to to be better and realize it's going to help you at the end of the day. 

Brandon: So I'm curious now how do you think your identity as a Black researcher has shaped your career path and experiences?

T'Lai: I would say luckily at the companies I've worked at, I don't feel like it's shown. I don't feel like I've had a flashlight held to me because I am a Black woman, thankfully. I’m not saying that that won't occur in the future or anything like that but I think the work speaks for itself.  The work that I do, the researcher that I am, it shines over my who I am or the color that I am, so I think I don't have it really dealt with that. Not saying that it didn't but I didn't feel any of it if it did occur. 

Brandon: Do you think that the companies you've worked for were particularly good in terms of maybe policies that helped with that or did they do anything specific that helped you feel comfortable being a black woman in your career? 

T'Lai: I think everyone has these D&I initiatives right so it may have been absorbed. But also, in my interview process, I'm not gonna lie, I keep these things in mind as I'm asking culture questions. I'm not just asking them aimlessly, I truly want to know what is their culture like. Who are the team members? What are their backgrounds? A lot of the times they have been diverse in terms of race, ethnicity, but also skill set so I think everyone realizes that we're bringing something different to the table and that has helped as well. If you're looking into a way to gauge the field, definitely do that in your interview process and don't be afraid to ask those questions that may help you make that decision.

Brandon: That makes a lot of sense. In your view, do you feel the UX industry as a whole  does a good job of supporting black practitioners? 

T'Lai: I think the gatekeeping is so insane that if you get in, you’re in. So that's a tough question, because getting in itself is so hard. I don't know, I feel like if you get in and you look like us then amazing and great for us and hopefully we're forging a path, but I just think it's hard in general whoever you are. I can't say that if it’s one over the other. If you look like us and you get in, that’s amazing! Kudos to you and I'm just so proud of you.

Brandon: Do you think that we as black researchers could be doing more or doing anything to help with that gatekeeping process? 

T'Lai: I think so. I think when it comes to people reaching out, I know I get things from LinkedIn. I get even TikToks. Sometimes people just will reach out and be like, ‘Look I'm looking to get into the field, is there anything that you can offer?’ They’re just looking for mentorship. I think that may be a better way. I don't know that there are enough programs. I don't know that there is enough exposure around UX researchers as a field. I know when I stumbled upon it, it was because I was looking for it. But, had I not been, I don't know that I would have known about it because my background wasn't something like HCI. I didn't have computer science or anything as my undergrad so I definitely think that we could be doing more. Whether it's a program or whether it's just taking our time and being open to people coming to us and be willing to offer our help to them. I know I am just because I know how hard it was for me, so I do my due diligence as an individual too. But, I do think that there isn't enough around it.  Even Afrotech, which just passed. Tickets were $800! What are we supposed to do with that? Yes, I definitely think that there are better things that could be done to showcase it as a discipline and to help us get there. 

Brandon: You mentioned that you do your due diligence. Could you speak a little bit more on that?

T'Lai: Yes, I just never shy away from the opportunity to help or offer my knowledge to someone.  I don't think I know it all, I’m very much still learning and I always will be. But, again I just have such deep empathy for people that are trying to break in because I know how difficult it was for me. So when I say I do my due diligence, I just try to be supportive, but even I feel like I could do more. But, when people reach out to me, I’ve definitely never ignored or not gotten back to them. I really try to offer whatever I can to whoever needs it because I know it's tough. But globally yes, to answer the question, yes I definitely think that more could be. I just don't even know what it looks like or how it would start.

Brandon: I want to switch and talk about all the things that you learned and adapted to. Was there anything that you had to unlearn from your academic research?

T'Lai: Stay in my own lane, because in academic research you have a hand in every piece of it. I mean, you build it, and you're scoping it as it goes along. So, yes I had to unlearn that. Some things have nothing to do with you, you know? That’s okay too because you're here to function as the researcher for this specific project. So yes, I think it was a double edge there. You don't have to be super involved in every integral piece of the project, just kind of focus on what you need to.

Brandon: Can you tell us about anything that you're particularly proud of in your career? 

T'Lai: Can I say getting here? *laughs* I mean, wow,  I'm very proud of myself for that, because it was not easy! Not to discourage, but it's not easy! So, that part. Two, I think about the things I have been able to learn and adapt to, or unlearn about myself just to become a better researcher. I really always appreciated how open I am to perspective from others, like if there’s a critique of something that I could do better, because there are different ways to skin a cat as they say. So, just being open to everything that any person may have to offer, as long as you trust their perspective of course! I think I'm just proud of the researcher that I'm becoming just because of the experiences that I've had and what I went through to get here. Everything that I've learned company to company, project to project, it's really malleable in my mind space.

Brandon: Flexibility seems to be a theme of this conversation right now. You've worked at a few different places like FanDuel and Home Depot, so when you are entering a new space, what are some things that you do to learn about your new space?

T'Lai: I feel like I keep saying ‘Ask questions’, but I do! I do ask questions! I'm a very active participant in things that are going on. I don't really passively digest information, especially if it's going to be a system that I'm using or a project that I'm about to be onboarded to. I'm pretty active because I want to do well. I had to learn Miro, and if you're not familiar with that, it's not a tough tool to understand, but I had to spend time learning it, you know? You have to learn the way that systems work, not even just the system itself. Processes within your company are sometimes different and learning about them only comes when you ask questions, or when you fumble and maybe mess up. But, then you learn from it. Please ask! Don't be afraid to! Sometimes you don't know what you don't know. That's where I get kind of annoyed because it's like, ‘I don't even know what is happening! Some of it's just going to come with time, so give yourself grace, and just don't be afraid of figuring things out and filling in the gaps where you don't know. Get a couple of people that you can rely on whether that's in your team or whether it's your manager. Take full advantage of your one-on-ones, because I know I definitely do. That's that's where I get all my grievances out or ask my questions. Just leverage what is there for you.

Brandon: What resources would you recommend people use in terms of learning, or in terms of practicing different research skills? 

T'Lai: I know I said this already, but I think human connection is very important. I feel like a lot of the things that I learned, or things that I was able to find out, came from relationships I built. I know people don't love LinkedIn sometimes, but I really think it's valuable because it puts you in the hands of people that you may not have been able to even know existed. My takeaways would be leveraging your LinkedIn network. Ask people in your network about what they use. When I started, I felt like everyone kept telling me to read the Design of Everyday Things. I did not read it, but I just kept hearing about it. I felt like it was a book they were just saying because they read it in school or whatever.  I did get it from the library but I never really just sat down and read it. Instead, I talked to people. Find out about their backgrounds, and leverage their experiences as well as things that they've gone through, or pitfalls that they've had, and figure out a way to either skip over them or avoid yourself in a similar position. I really think that who you know is going to be the most helpful.

Brandon: Do you have any final takeaways for the readers?

T'Lai: I just want for Black UXRs to understand that it is going to be difficult, but it doesn't mean it's not for you and that you can't do it. It's not impossible! Look at us! We are here. I understand that it's not the easiest process but you can do it! People like me and people like you are around to help if you need it. Just because you’re not there right now doesn’t mean you won’t get there. It could just mean you’re not there yet. It doesn't mean that it's not ever going to come.

Brandon: Thank you so much. Last question: What do you love most about being a User Experience Researcher?

T'Lai: I'm gonna go back to that malleability. The amount of projects that you work. The amount of people that you're exposed to, whether it's within your company, or the users. I think it's truly molding me as an individual because we were at work more than anywhere. Honestly, eight hours a day, five days a week. I think the flexibility that it gives me to think about different projects. Sometimes, the magnitude of the project is bigger. Sometimes, I get smaller scale projects that aren't not as important or deep. I think it's just giving me this whole new flexibility and showing myself what I'm able to do and what I'm capable of. I think that's helpful, it's just like holding a mirror to see what you did and what you're able to do. I think that's helpful especially if your career can give you that perspective.